Um, well, when he gets 2026 delegates, I reckon. Even a jaded ole independent like me can't help but smile at your stunning sense of irony, Annie (i.e. The PARTY'S over).
Stupidland - now that's class, Roger! Especially in light of the fact that for 92 years no Democrat has been elected to the White House without carrying West Virginia (a Wild And Wonderful place if I do say so myself). Be careful of whom you turn your nose up to.
I have to say that I was disgusted to see that college students for Obama were hurling insults at farmers and truck drivers holding signs for Clinton. With Hillary having garnered over 47 percent of the Democratic Party's primary and caucus participants (so far), I would hope Obama's supporters see the wisdom of making love and not war - their candidate can't beat John McCain without large chunks of Clinton's core constituency: women, Hispanics and the white working class. Dumping on their candidate is one step removed from dumping on them - and obviously some of the Obama people don't even bother with that step.
But hey, if, God Forbid, McCain wins in November, you'll probably find some juicy rationalization for laying teh blame on all those stupid Clinton supporters.
o'tim--i wasn't aiming to insult clinton, well except for the rule changing thing. and i certainly agree with you about not insulting her supporters, except for the blatantly racist ones.
Well, O'Tim, one person we CAN'T blame if McCain wins in November is Nader. He's more invisible than the Cheshire Cat since his entry into the race.
Yes, I've seen some folks in the Obama camp baiting the Clintonites. I've also seen a lot of Clintonites saying the most incredibly stupid things, like how they're going to vote for McCain out of spite, or stay home and not vote at all. Evidently, they only care about the country's welfare if they can have their way. Otherwise, screw the country, let four more years of Republican leadership teach those bastards to see things their way. eh?
What I don't see is how the candidates are to blame. In fact, I don't see how one can say "college students for Obama" in one sentence and then move that up to "Obama's supporters" in the next. Are we talking about ALL of his supporters, or a small sample? Are we going to use the sample to judge the whole?
For years, people in general and Democrats in particular have bemoaned the fact that the young don't get involved and don't vote. While that seems to be in no danger of changing significantly, there are more people in the 18-24 year bracket that are getting involved. Why do we expect them to act like we do, when we're twice their age? I remember the two of us purposely baiting Dean Switchenberg as we walked across campus. Among other things, we sang him a chorus of "The Illinois Enema Bandit." Not exactly making our point in a mature manner, were we? The thing is, we can only see that from a distance in time. We sure as well would not have agreed to that assessment if someone had stopped us right then and confronted us with it.
For her part, I thought it was great for Clinton to tell her supporters to knock off the "I'll vote for McCain" jazz, and I don't think that the ruder Obama supporters have been taking that cue from Obama personally. Emotions are running high right now, and most folks have no clue when it comes to looking at the bigger picture and exercising some self-editing.
Oh, and don't you find it even worth a small grin to think about how Hillary herself claimed to be supported by uneducated, hard-working whites right before scoring big in W. Virginia? Come on. Who DIDN'T hear a few bars of "Dueling Banjos" when she said that? :-)
o'tim~i get it, re: the party. it's true that the old democratic party is fading out. ie: hill and bill. obama is a like a breath of fresh air. and the fact that the young voters are crazy about him only proves that point further. as for making fun of hillbillies, plenty of folks make fun of "elitists" and "san franciscans" too. things have definitely reached a fever pitch, and it's about time!!
Roger - I hope you are similarly inclined to insult those displaying blatant sexism in their detraction of Sen. Clinton.
Joe - Specious references to Nader aside, my comment was in the context of Roger's generalized assassination on the fine character of West Virginians and how I am similarly disgusted by the reports about the college students. Perhaps it would be clearer to say, "I would hope the majority of Obama's supporters..." Still, I think the last sentence of that same paragraph clarifies my meaning as I referred to "some of the Obama people." I admit I do risk two assumptions: first, that Roger is older than your average college student, which I allow in turn to solidify my second assumption, that "some" constitutes a large enough group to give independent voters like myself pause.
But you are right that these actions do not (necessarily) rise to the top and that such unsavoriness flows both ways (such as "we'll vote for McCain" doofuses). My point overall is that the whole damn thing's a mess, and frankly I get frustrated when I see anyone having the tinglies for any of these major candidates. As I see it now, if Obama is elected it will simply be a case of his Illinois mafia moving in as Bush's Texas mafia hits the road. Lesser of two evils by far but still business as usual. The road to the presidency, especially one as short as Obama's, is rife with favors that will have to be repaid. I will certainly be watching for opportunities to support him in every progressive endeavor he undertakes as well as ride him for actions (or inactions) against that ideology.
Annie, I apologize for my cynicism. Obviously I meant the party's over for me, ever since the cahoots of the DNC/DLC and MSNBC to disenfrachise the supporters of the one candidate who would have run debate circles around their annointed front runners. It's all about the Benjamins by the time one gets to running for prez, and the one who plays/strokes the media best gets to be the winner. Obama has done well with this, but lest you forget that Karl Rove still lurks around out there and he's sure to be a force come the homestretch of August to November.
You might take heart in the fact that there is a Senate race here in Georgia that I am strong behind. At least we agree that fewer Republicans in office is a good thing.
o'tim...yes, i am, and vigorously. and i agree with your assessment of the actions of the college students you observed. i would prefer that both candidates and supporters behave better. i hope that majority of the people who voted in the democratic primaries support the party's nominee. and i hope that the rules which all agreed to are held to.
I see where you're coming from, O'Tim, but you are letting your idealism frustrate you in much the same way that I used to. We must learn to, as King Crimson said, be happy with what we have to be happy with, because nothing better is coming before 2012, and probably isn't coming then. I get a much bigger "business as usual" vibe from Clinton, and so my loyalties lie elsewhere, but as an independent I have no input until November anyway, so I'm along for the ride until then.
As far as sexism, I have seen the word tossed about, but I really haven't seen much to back the accusations up. It seems that any reason that is given for not supporting Hillary leads to an accusation of sexism, as if that has to be the underlying cause of any disapproval. She loses me on these points: 1) Her explicit defense of the current lobbying system, 2) her disregard for the rules that she agreed in writing to respect regarding Fla. and Mi., and 3) her stated intention to go after the superdelegates regardless of the outcome of the primaries, which shows that all her bluster about the "people of Fla. and Mi. having their voices heard" is no more than a steaming pile of rich, brown opportunism.
Now, accusations about racism get thrown the other direction, and aren't necessarily so. However, when someone is willing to vehemently support Clinton against McCain, but will switch to McCain against Obama, I have to wonder if that person's concern is truly political. In fact, I have to doubt it.
Nader, if he continues his current trend, could end up with my support. Perhaps the time has come for a President that can't be seen OR heard. :-)
thank you joe for a succinct list of objections to hillary. we actually gave her campaign money. it was your last two that caused me to lose sympathy for her. i do think that many public commentators made rather sexist pronouncements about her.
and o'tim, i will check out obama's illinois mafia. can it be as destructive to the country as the oil mafia?
I'm hurt by the slam to West Virginia. A lot of my family came from "stupidland." Native Americans, Irish, Scottish. They worked in the mines and on the railroads and were good people. My great grandfather came from stupidland and was a Cherokee healer. Another great-grandfather from stupidland was a doctor. It might do you good to spend some time down there, Roger, you might learn some respect and common decency while you're there.
"As far as sexism, I have seen the word tossed about, but I really haven't seen much to back the accusations up."
I know you don't watch a lot of TV, Joe, so I wouldn't expect you'd be aware of some of the shit that Chris Matthews on MSNBC or the Faux dipshits have let fly from the abundance of their hearts (Matt. 12:34). Here's a tally of all sorts of misogyny from the wonderful folks at Shakesville
I can hear you saying that you need to see a well rounded sampling of the media to be well informed, although I tend to think that you can be well informed while still filtering out obvious bullshit. Even given that, I would never let such sources color my opinions, except my opinion of those sources themselves.
Frankly, I stopped reading when I got to the words Wil Wheaton. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't his main claim to fame being the kid on Star Trek that most of the fans wanted to toss out of an airlock? He has zero to say to me about the election. There are only three people, in fact, who have words that can truly influence me here, and you know who they are. If I hear Obama himself, or any of his higher-ups, say such things I'll judge him on that but I won't lie Wheaton's words at his feet. Same with the people who say they'll support Clinton but would rather vote for McCain than Obama - those words show THEM to be idiots but don't necessarily reflect on Hillary.
Personally, I DO think there is something to the idea that a lot of this divisive crap, especially that in blog comments, comes from Republicans who want to keep the fur flying, much akin to the frolics that Rush has been up to.
(I just went back and read part of the other half, and it seems that the other guy, the congressman, was being a dick. Once again, I think he was probably a dick before Obama showed up. Aren't I always being told in my AA posts that politicians are PAID to be assholes?)
I'm just suspicious of claims that sexism is the only cause of Hillary's failure to get the nomination sewn up when the fact is that she's gotten closer to the nomination than any woman ever has. I'm equally suspicious of claims that black people are all for Obama because he's black, when the attempts of Sharpton, Jackson, Keyes, and Mosely-Braun are still fresh in memory.
The Party's OVER.
21 comments:
yay and a half!!!!!!!!!
brilliant upstaging of hillary's "big" victory in stupidland, er w va., and her big news interviews.
unfortunately, it ain't over till clinton loses out on changing the rules.
it is so over! :)
I fear that she'll never go away. Next move for her will be angling to get on the ticket as the VP.
As much as I dislike her, that may not be a bad thing.
I like your blog.
The party is over; the party has just begun.
even a jaded ole bitch like me had to smile at this bit of very well timed news...
obama/edwards 08
~ n
Um, well, when he gets 2026 delegates, I reckon. Even a jaded ole independent like me can't help but smile at your stunning sense of irony, Annie (i.e. The PARTY'S over).
Stupidland - now that's class, Roger! Especially in light of the fact that for 92 years no Democrat has been elected to the White House without carrying West Virginia (a Wild And Wonderful place if I do say so myself). Be careful of whom you turn your nose up to.
I have to say that I was disgusted to see that college students for Obama were hurling insults at farmers and truck drivers holding signs for Clinton. With Hillary having garnered over 47 percent of the Democratic Party's primary and caucus participants (so far), I would hope Obama's supporters see the wisdom of making love and not war - their candidate can't beat John McCain without large chunks of Clinton's core constituency: women, Hispanics and the white working class. Dumping on their candidate is one step removed from dumping on them - and obviously some of the Obama people don't even bother with that step.
But hey, if, God Forbid, McCain wins in November, you'll probably find some juicy rationalization for laying teh blame on all those stupid Clinton supporters.
o'tim--i wasn't aiming to insult clinton, well except for the rule changing thing. and i certainly agree with you about not insulting her supporters, except for the blatantly racist ones.
Well, O'Tim, one person we CAN'T blame if McCain wins in November is Nader. He's more invisible than the Cheshire Cat since his entry into the race.
Yes, I've seen some folks in the Obama camp baiting the Clintonites. I've also seen a lot of Clintonites saying the most incredibly stupid things, like how they're going to vote for McCain out of spite, or stay home and not vote at all. Evidently, they only care about the country's welfare if they can have their way. Otherwise, screw the country, let four more years of Republican leadership teach those bastards to see things their way. eh?
What I don't see is how the candidates are to blame. In fact, I don't see how one can say "college students for Obama" in one sentence and then move that up to "Obama's supporters" in the next. Are we talking about ALL of his supporters, or a small sample? Are we going to use the sample to judge the whole?
For years, people in general and Democrats in particular have bemoaned the fact that the young don't get involved and don't vote. While that seems to be in no danger of changing significantly, there are more people in the 18-24 year bracket that are getting involved. Why do we expect them to act like we do, when we're twice their age? I remember the two of us purposely baiting Dean Switchenberg as we walked across campus. Among other things, we sang him a chorus of "The Illinois Enema Bandit." Not exactly making our point in a mature manner, were we? The thing is, we can only see that from a distance in time. We sure as well would not have agreed to that assessment if someone had stopped us right then and confronted us with it.
For her part, I thought it was great for Clinton to tell her supporters to knock off the "I'll vote for McCain" jazz, and I don't think that the ruder Obama supporters have been taking that cue from Obama personally. Emotions are running high right now, and most folks have no clue when it comes to looking at the bigger picture and exercising some self-editing.
Oh, and don't you find it even worth a small grin to think about how Hillary herself claimed to be supported by uneducated, hard-working whites right before scoring big in W. Virginia? Come on. Who DIDN'T hear a few bars of "Dueling Banjos" when she said that? :-)
o'tim~i get it, re: the party. it's true that the old democratic party is fading out. ie: hill and bill. obama is a like a breath of fresh air. and the fact that the young voters are crazy about him only proves that point further. as for making fun of hillbillies, plenty of folks make fun of "elitists" and "san franciscans" too. things have definitely reached a fever pitch, and it's about time!!
Yup, it's lookin' that way...definitely over but the crying.
Wait....can you hear that? I think it's the fat lady singing.
And another nail in her coffin is the fact that NARAL supports Obama. Ouch!
Roger - I hope you are similarly inclined to insult those displaying blatant sexism in their detraction of Sen. Clinton.
Joe - Specious references to Nader aside, my comment was in the context of Roger's generalized assassination on the fine character of West Virginians and how I am similarly disgusted by the reports about the college students. Perhaps it would be clearer to say, "I would hope the majority of Obama's supporters..." Still, I think the last sentence of that same paragraph clarifies my meaning as I referred to "some of the Obama people." I admit I do risk two assumptions: first, that Roger is older than your average college student, which I allow in turn to solidify my second assumption, that "some" constitutes a large enough group to give independent voters like myself pause.
But you are right that these actions do not (necessarily) rise to the top and that such unsavoriness flows both ways (such as "we'll vote for McCain" doofuses). My point overall is that the whole damn thing's a mess, and frankly I get frustrated when I see anyone having the tinglies for any of these major candidates. As I see it now, if Obama is elected it will simply be a case of his Illinois mafia moving in as Bush's Texas mafia hits the road. Lesser of two evils by far but still business as usual. The road to the presidency, especially one as short as Obama's, is rife with favors that will have to be repaid. I will certainly be watching for opportunities to support him in every progressive endeavor he undertakes as well as ride him for actions (or inactions) against that ideology.
Annie, I apologize for my cynicism. Obviously I meant the party's over for me, ever since the cahoots of the DNC/DLC and MSNBC to disenfrachise the supporters of the one candidate who would have run debate circles around their annointed front runners. It's all about the Benjamins by the time one gets to running for prez, and the one who plays/strokes the media best gets to be the winner. Obama has done well with this, but lest you forget that Karl Rove still lurks around out there and he's sure to be a force come the homestretch of August to November.
You might take heart in the fact that there is a Senate race here in Georgia that I am strong behind. At least we agree that fewer Republicans in office is a good thing.
o'tim...yes, i am, and vigorously. and i agree with your assessment of the actions of the college students you observed. i would prefer that both candidates and supporters behave better. i hope that majority of the people who voted in the democratic primaries support the party's nominee. and i hope that the rules which all agreed to are held to.
you are correct about my age.
I see where you're coming from, O'Tim, but you are letting your idealism frustrate you in much the same way that I used to. We must learn to, as King Crimson said, be happy with what we have to be happy with, because nothing better is coming before 2012, and probably isn't coming then. I get a much bigger "business as usual" vibe from Clinton, and so my loyalties lie elsewhere, but as an independent I have no input until November anyway, so I'm along for the ride until then.
As far as sexism, I have seen the word tossed about, but I really haven't seen much to back the accusations up. It seems that any reason that is given for not supporting Hillary leads to an accusation of sexism, as if that has to be the underlying cause of any disapproval. She loses me on these points: 1) Her explicit defense of the current lobbying system, 2) her disregard for the rules that she agreed in writing to respect regarding Fla. and Mi., and 3) her stated intention to go after the superdelegates regardless of the outcome of the primaries, which shows that all her bluster about the "people of Fla. and Mi. having their voices heard" is no more than a steaming pile of rich, brown opportunism.
Now, accusations about racism get thrown the other direction, and aren't necessarily so. However, when someone is willing to vehemently support Clinton against McCain, but will switch to McCain against Obama, I have to wonder if that person's concern is truly political. In fact, I have to doubt it.
Nader, if he continues his current trend, could end up with my support. Perhaps the time has come for a President that can't be seen OR heard. :-)
thank you joe for a succinct list of objections to hillary. we actually gave her campaign money. it was your last two that caused me to lose sympathy for her. i do think that many public commentators made rather sexist pronouncements about her.
and o'tim, i will check out obama's illinois mafia. can it be as destructive to the country as the oil mafia?
I'm hurt by the slam to West Virginia.
A lot of my family came from "stupidland." Native Americans, Irish, Scottish. They worked in the mines and on the railroads and were good people. My great grandfather came from stupidland and was a Cherokee healer. Another great-grandfather from stupidland was a doctor.
It might do you good to spend some time down there, Roger, you might learn some respect and common decency while you're there.
"As far as sexism, I have seen the word tossed about, but I really haven't seen much to back the accusations up."
I know you don't watch a lot of TV, Joe, so I wouldn't expect you'd be aware of some of the shit that Chris Matthews on MSNBC or the Faux dipshits have let fly from the abundance of their hearts (Matt. 12:34). Here's a tally of all sorts of misogyny from the wonderful folks at Shakesville
You're right, I don't watch that stuff.
Why WOULD I?
I can hear you saying that you need to see a well rounded sampling of the media to be well informed, although I tend to think that you can be well informed while still filtering out obvious bullshit. Even given that, I would never let such sources color my opinions, except my opinion of those sources themselves.
Frankly, I stopped reading when I got to the words Wil Wheaton. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't his main claim to fame being the kid on Star Trek that most of the fans wanted to toss out of an airlock? He has zero to say to me about the election. There are only three people, in fact, who have words that can truly influence me here, and you know who they are. If I hear Obama himself, or any of his higher-ups, say such things I'll judge him on that but I won't lie Wheaton's words at his feet. Same with the people who say they'll support Clinton but would rather vote for McCain than Obama - those words show THEM to be idiots but don't necessarily reflect on Hillary.
Personally, I DO think there is something to the idea that a lot of this divisive crap, especially that in blog comments, comes from Republicans who want to keep the fur flying, much akin to the frolics that Rush has been up to.
(I just went back and read part of the other half, and it seems that the other guy, the congressman, was being a dick. Once again, I think he was probably a dick before Obama showed up. Aren't I always being told in my AA posts that politicians are PAID to be assholes?)
I'm just suspicious of claims that sexism is the only cause of Hillary's failure to get the nomination sewn up when the fact is that she's gotten closer to the nomination than any woman ever has. I'm equally suspicious of claims that black people are all for Obama because he's black, when the attempts of Sharpton, Jackson, Keyes, and Mosely-Braun are still fresh in memory.
is this all there is, my friend? then let's keep dancing, let's bring out the booze, and have a ball.
Name that tune! Name that singer!
if that's all there is and peggy lee, of course!! :)
I think Wil Wheaton was in 'Stand By Me' too :)
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